Jillian Michaels vs The Body Positivity Movement | Surrounded
B2
Would you say that it should be against
the law to discriminate against people
based on their body size?
>> Unquestionably.
>> So, why don't we see more fitness and
wellness advocates asking for that?
>> I'm happy to ask for it. I'll ask for it
right now. I didn't know that you
thought I wasn't for it. I wasn't
allowed to have a ding-dong when I came
home and I said, "I want ding-dongs in
my lunch." You know what my mom bought
me? Low-fat ding-dongs. Maybe there's
more to life than trying to lose weight.
That's what body positivity has given
me. You have to like love yourself. You
have to invite love into the space.
>> How?
>> By looking at yourself in the mirror and
telling yourself, "I'm beautiful." Is
that going to work, kid?
>> It does work.
>> That's an SNL skit.
>> Are Americans fat phobic and obsessed
with unrealistic beauty standards? Or
has the body positivity movement
normalize unhealthy habits and
lifestyles? I'm John Regalado and today
we're going to have a debate about what
it means to be healthy. Jillian, how are
you feeling?
>> Feel good.
>> Debaters, you ready to come at Jillian
with your best arguments?
All right, let's get into it.
>> Hi, I'm Jillian Michaels. I'm a fitness
expert and a health advocate. And today
I am surrounded by 20 body positivity
activists.
All right, my first surrounded claim is
that obesity is not healthy and
pretending it is puts lives at risk.
If you want to be the first debater, get
to the chair in three, two, one.
Hi.
>> Hi.
>> I'm Edie.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> I'm an eating disorder therapist. I'm
going to do my best to not use the O
word because I find it um pretty
offensive. Uh so I'm going to use
fatbodied um as we talk.
>> Okay.
>> Um do you understand why people find it
harmful and triggering?
>> It overweight and obese is literally
just having too much body fat. It has
nothing to do with the quality of the
person.
Yeah, I agree with you on that. Are
>> are we going to debate the claim?
>> Yeah. I just wanted to
>> Yeah. I wanted to clarify though the
>> We going to pretend like I'm a three and
you're my mommy telling me how to talk.
>> Wow.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> So, the claim that you're saying is that
it is inherently unhealthy to live in a
fat body.
>> It's unher inherently unhealthy to have
excess body fat. Yes.
>> Okay. Where are you getting that
information from? Oh, okay. There are
dozens of MRT trials that show having
excess body fat. Dozens is causal, not
correlated.
>> Oh, no, that's not true. There is no
disease that just fat-bodied people get
>> I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
But obesity lends itself to all cause
mortality across the board. Have you
heard of something called adaposopathy?
>> Mhm. Okay. So you know it means
literally sick fat and you understand
how it works.
>> H
>> okay tell me how it works.
>> So it's
a additional layer of fat in the stomach
area.
>> No that's not what it is. It works as
follows. When we eat too much food that
has energy that we're not utilizing the
body needs to put that energy somewhere,
right? So it puts it in fat cells. So it
puts it in initially subcutaneous fat
cells. little bit of visceral fat, which
is fat around the organs. And at first,
you have hyperplasia, which means we're
recruiting new little fat cells, which
isn't necessarily a bad thing up to a
point. Now, the issue is that once you
can no longer recruit more fat cells,
right, you get hypertrophy. So, the fat
cells start to expand. And this is
exceptionally dangerous because what
ends up happening is the blood vessels
get outpaced. So the fat cells can't get
oxygen and they start screaming
literally and when they do they release
cytoines inflammatory proteins right
>> I want to pause
>> of course you do want to pause
>> because it it's irrefutable you don't
even know what I'm talking about
>> so Jillian okay first of all I don't
appreciate the way that you're speaking
to me right now you you called me out
for just trying to understand the
languaging and saying I was talking to
like a three-year-old why I felt I was
talking to you very respectfully you're
talking to me very disrespectfully right
I know.
>> Here's the thing.
>> And I I want to
>> You're telling me you understand it, but
you don't understand it. You
fundamentally didn't describe it
accurately.
>> But what I understand is that what's
lipotoxicity? I don't want to talk about
I am not Okay, here I'm going to say
this straight out. I am not a medical
doctor. Okay? So, I'm not going to talk
to you about medical diagnosis because
that's outside my scope and I'm fully
willing. Hey, I'm fully willing to be
wrong. What I am here to talk to you
about is the fact that people in fat
bodies are irregularly harmed going into
the medical system every single day
because of the term the o word. So
that's what you want to litigate. Yeah.
Okay. That's not the claim though.
>> The idea that fatbodied people are
inherently unhealthy is I believe
incorrect.
>> You're wrong.
>> No, I'm not wrong.
>> Robust amount of data.
>> I'm not okay. So let me finish. You
can't look at
>> Let me finish.
>> Let me finish my thought first.
>> You can't look at a person's body and
tell whether or not they're what tell
their health status.
>> So fat is an endocrine organ. When it
overgrows, it does wreck havoc in the
body. I didn't finish telling you what
happens. So when the oxygen can't get to
those fat cells, they'll die and they'll
rupture and then the immune system
starts dumping macrofasages in to try to
clean it up. But do you know what's even
more unhealthy is weight cycling. And as
we talked about earlier only except for
your your your people who
>> claim
>> if you want to talk about that claim we
can. The claim is
>> so then what are you supposed to do
though? So let's say this person is in a
fat body and they are inherently
unhealthy. Right? We're telling they're
they're unhealthy because they are in
this fat body. What are they supposed to
do?
>> Will be more significantly more prone to
all cause mortality. For me,
>> intentional weight loss fails 95 to 98%
of the time.
>> So what is
>> why though? You would probably know this
better than me.
>> Because weight is not an individualistic
pursuit. You narrow it down to this idea
that it's causal like that. They're just
not trying hard enough. But that is
>> I didn't say that.
>> It's multiffactorial.
Unquestionably,
a lot of people lose weight. The
problem, right, is that they put it back
on. Are we in agreement?
>> Yes.
>> Okay, great. Why do you think?
>> Okay, we got to pause there.
>> God damn it. All right, [laughter]
>> I'm sorry,
>> John. I'm getting somewhere.
>> Yeah, but voted out by the majority.
Please return to your seat.
>> Okay.
[music]
>> Hello.
>> Hi.
>> I have lived in a fat body for like as
long as I can remember.
>> And I've known very many fat people. And
I don't think any of us, the people that
I know, I can only speak to the people
who I know. I don't think any of us are
pretending that we're okay with it. What
I want to say here is I I live with
autoimmune disorders. I live with
chronic illness and I'm also neurode
divergent. Um and this is the body
positivity movement has made it so that
I can tolerate this life. I can find
ways to thrive even still. Um, but I'm
not pretending that this doesn't bother
me. And by bother, I mean that it
doesn't hurt to carry my weight. I'm
willing to concede with you that
carrying around extra weight is harder.
It is, but I it must be done.
>> I don't know that I agree with you.
>> Okay,
>> tell me more, please.
>> Well, tell me why you think it must be
done.
>> Because I've worked really hard to not
have have this.
>> What does that mean? Like you feel like
you beat yourself up in the gym or
something.
>> No, I don't. That's not fun.
>> No, I I'm not I'm just [laughter] trying
to understand what what you mean.
>> What I mean is that um I grew up with a
with a number of undiagnosed conditions
>> and even I can think back to like middle
school and I couldn't keep up when the
PE teacher would make us like run laps
and I'm like this is physically aching
me and I didn't understand why. And I
didn't understand why because I grew up
with a single parent, undocumented
single parent. We were bound
to the medical system that we had access
to.
>> I understand.
>> I've done what I needed to do a number
of times to try to lose weight.
>> What What did you try? Tell me.
>> I've done done I've worked at I've
worked out at the gym. I've tried to do
Pilates. I even yoga even yoga hurts me.
[laughter]
>> Okay. So the exercise causes you pain.
>> The exercise condition. Okay, no
problem. I'm I'm with you.
>> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Dieting, for example.
>> Okay.
>> That doesn't make any sense to me. I
don't think that food makes very much
sense to me in my neurode divergent
brain.
>> This is where mechanistic eating
actually helps people who are neurode
divergent and the research supports that
because it doesn't have to make sense to
you.
>> In other words, it's like you eat on
these schedules and you eat these foods
and you eat this much. Hence the
concept, right, of mechanistic.
>> I don't like that. I [laughter]
understand that you don't like it, but
you'll have to decide which you don't
like more.
>> Carrying the weight or the mechanistic
eating cuz it really could be helpful.
There are other ways forward, but you
told me you tried them.
>> I've tried I tried a whole lot. There's
a lot of other things to be concerned
about. I'm also a social worker. I work
with youth.
>> There are a lot of
>> Let's go back to you.
>> Uhhuh. Yes. I'm I'm saying for me,
right, there are many things that I'm
more concerned about than my weight. My
my body is not the most interesting
thing about me.
>> You brought up your weight and said I
don't see a way out of this. I tried
everything and I just take care of it in
the ways that I can and I've found works
for me.
>> But but you just told me it didn't work
for you.
>> But it works to an extent.
>> You just told me it didn't work for you.
>> It works to an extent.
>> Then this isn't a relevant conversation
if you're happy with it. I stand on 10
toes, 10 toes down that we are not
pretending that there's healthy at any
size. There are absolutely elements and
aspects of the movement that do put that
messaging into the universe. I've had
those debates.
>> You've said
>> I've had numerous debates with people
who are body positivity activists that
try to tell me that they can be healthy
at any size and it's just not the case.
>> And I disagree with that.
to shame. You shame as a vehicle.
>> Hey, I'm sorry. We have to pause. You've
been voted out by the majority. Please
return to your seat.
>> Got it. Okay.
Okay. What I'm curious about is if you
care about people's health and you have
people in front of you and I'm sure you
have people online who are telling you
that the body positivity movement or I
prefer the body liberation, body
justice, body acceptance, body blah, all
the all the good that we like,
>> okay,
>> actually increases their health, then I
don't understand your debate. Like what
are you debating if the fat people are
telling you it makes their life better?
>> I'm debating their physical health and
I'm debating the people who claim that
you can be physically healthy at any
size.
>> Okay. Do you think you can be physically
healthy and mentally unhealthy at the
same time?
>> Of course, but that's not the claim.
>> Okay. Sure. Um I think the part where I
get stuck, I am a mental health
professional. Um I work with people from
a body liberation standpoint. I work
with people in all shapes of bodies.
What I know to be true from my
experience is that body positivity, body
liberation helps people take care of
themselves. It's very difficult to
understand why you think somebody is
going to take better care of a body they
hate. Like why body positivity would not
inspire people to take better care of
their body.
>> My argument I never said you should hate
your body. In fact, you you should
>> Okay. So I don't think that what I think
is that there are people in the movement
Yeah. who have co-opted healthy at any
size and it went from access to health
care to quite literally meaning for them
that you can be healthy at any size and
that's not true.
>> Okay. I mean I there the studies show
that if you're very very very very thin
or your body is very very very very big
it is more difficult to be healthy. That
is absolutely true.
>> Can you agree with me on this point?
>> I don't because I I don't think body
positivity is the dangerous thing. I
think I think hatred of fat bodies and
people hating themselves and people
living in self-loathing because they've
been taught that their body is the wrong
shape. That's the danger.
>> Both can be true at once. So let's look
at this, right? So the first thing we
would want to do obviously is
incentivize somebody. So it's like,
okay, what's the why that's going to
allow you to tolerate the how? But hold
on, hold on. That's the positive. That's
the inspiration piece. Okay, now here's
the issue.
If that piece, if all the things that
they get out of it don't serve them as
much as the things they're getting out
of being overweight and it does provide
quite a lot. I can give you an example.
>> Wait, then they're not going
unconsciously, they will sabotage the
change. Can I give you an example so
you'll understand it?
>> Okay. There was a kid that I worked
with,
>> okay,
>> on Biggest Loser. He's 18 years old.
>> Okay.
>> He shows up with his dad, Ken. They both
lose like 100 pounds. They go home.
>> Mhm. and they're visiting their family.
It's the holidays. Doors fly open and
there's mom and mom starts crying and
she's not crying. Tears of joy. She
feels like they're going to abandon her,
like they broke the contract, like
they've outgrown her. And she becomes
sad and she withdraws. So, what does the
18-year-old do? He starts eating with
mom again. What does the food provide
him? A connection with his mom. I had
something similar with my dad was one of
the ways that we connected.
Food provides a lot of people with a lot
of different things.
>> Yes, you cannot eat and not have your
parasympathetic nervous system turn on
at the same time. There is no such thing
as not emotional eating. It's fine. It's
good. It's great. Food is great.
>> But what I'm trying to show you is that
if in some cases
the pain associated with continuing that
defense mechanism
is greater than the pain associated with
change. [clears throat]
>> It helps people change in some cases.
Not in the long term. And I pause there.
You are you've been voted out by the
majority. Please return to your seat.
[music]
>> So we earlier you were speaking about
how these there's randomized control
trials that show
>> Mandelian randomized control trials that
have now shown us that obesity is causal
to all cause mortality.
>> Okay. So I I disagree with that. I think
there's going to be a problem with
>> dozens.
Here's why I disagree. Because
>> you can disagree.
>> No, but let me please please let me hear
me out.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So, the reason why is because
registered dietitian school for six
years, study nutrition, weight, all the
all the stuff. And we can't keep
toxicity is
>> it doesn't come off my curriculum
because it's Because it's a
tick tock thing that's like, you know,
cortisol face or whatever. But please
just back.
>> It is not Back to the studies.
Ectopic fat.
>> But can we just say because you keep
sidest stepping and then we can never
get anywhere. I mean this is the claim,
okay? The claim is that obesity is
unhealthy. Lipotoxicity is not
It is the definition of ectopic fat.
>> It's funny it never came up in six years
of a professional accredited under.
>> What's fatty liver disease?
>> I know what fatty liars [laughter] as a
clinical dietician.
>> That's lipotoxicity.
>> Okay. Okay. When fat is in the liver,
when fat is in the heart, when fat gets
deposited in the brain,
>> yeah,
>> that is lipotoxicity. And it happens
when the body has no place to put the
excess energy anymore. It is irrefutable
that that is bad for your health.
>> Can we just go back to the correlation
doesn't equal causation? So you're
saying there's causal studies, right?
>> Yes. MRT studies that show
>> the acronym is great. Okay. So my thing
is the reason why we cannot show that
that the fat in and of itself leads to
the negative health outcomes is because
we cannot keep a human in a lab and
control every factor but have the only
thing that's different
>> is mandelian randomized control.
>> Can you just listen? So a person that
inherently eliminates any conflating
factors because they're based on genetic
predispositions coupled with lifestyed
things that we can't undo from the fat.
So for example, they might have negative
health outcomes because every time they
go to a doctor, instead of being given
an evidence-based treatment like I have
unearned thin privilege, I go to a
doctor, I say, you know, my stomach
hurts. I get a full workup. saying the
earth is flat.
>> Are you trying to tell me that having
fat in your liver?
>> I just want to talk about
>> having fat in your heart, having fat
deposited in your brain is healthy.
>> No, I just want to talk about
>> So, no, you're not trying to say that
it's healthy.
>> No, I'm not trying to tell you that is
what I said. I was never talking about
the health of it. I'm trying to say
everything you're saying is hinging on
this idea and it's it's a problem that
we disagree on it that it's the weight
in and of itself that leads to the
negative health outcomes. You're saying
this MRT totally is
>> that is an endocrine organ.
>> I know. But but can you release it?
Destroys your hormone balance. It
creates insulin sensitivity.
The body has too much fat. It releases
insane amounts of different
>> I just wonder, have you heard of social
determinants of health?
>> Tell me about it.
>> Okay. Social determinance of health, a
group of factors that impact someone's
health outcomes. that are things like
your uh your your healthcare access and
quality, neighborhood and built
environment, things like your stress
levels, socioeconomic status. So, here's
the thing.
>> A person who's fat or lives in a larger
body,
>> they we can't take away that that person
has probably experienced higher stress
levels their whole life from
experiencing marginalization every
corner from shows like The Biggest Loser
to The Doctor's Office. We can't take
away that they haven't been given
evidence-based health options because
when they go to a doctor, they're told
to go lose weight.
>> Fat gets deposited in you're not
answering what I'm saying.
>> How does how does I'm confused. Are you
suggesting these are the reasons people
become overweight?
>> No, I'm suggesting that I a person could
be in a larger body and be perfectly
healthy on a B on based on their lab
their cholesterol. 7% of people who are
classified as overweight or obese. Call
it whatever you guys feel comfortable
with, only 7% are classified as healthy.
Say that was true. Say we knew I can go
grab the data for you right now if you
want.
>> Say we knew for certain that it was
unhealthy. That that what you're saying
is true.
>> And here's the classification.
>> But even then, even then we'd be in this
place where okay, so what do we do? Are
we going to send someone down a path of
trying to lose weight and then gaining
and trying and gaining? And we know that
weight cycling in and of itself bad for
the heart, bad for insulin, bad for the
brain, bad for all the things.
>> We we work with that individual.
>> That's what I do in my private practice.
>> Well, that's wonderful.
>> Yeah. And I don't I don't encourage
weight loss because it's unethical.
>> I disagree with you.
>> And what's you asking before not to be
transparent with people about the
dangers?
>> Yeah. Transparency is the dangers of
weight cycling. You can go down that
path.
>> That's a separate issue. You're
presuming they're weight cycling. If
you're doing your job, they shouldn't
have to wait cycle, right?
>> No, it's not about me. It's about the
body. The body is so smart. We are We
are but we're animals. Our bodies when
we lose weight, our body goes, "Oh
she just starved me. I'm going to do
everything I can to try to get back to
that place, drive up thoughts about
food,
>> slow down metabolism to conserve the
energy you are getting."
>> So, are you suggesting that because it's
hard and it's multiffactorial, we should
negate the dangers and not try to get
healthy? guessing that it's more
dangerous to weight cycle than it is to
stay in a fat body.
>> That's still not the claim. And if if
you want to show me that, like, sure,
show me the data. I'm not going to argue
with that. It's not healthy to do that
either. That's still not the claim. Your
claim
>> this is an hierarchy of what is
>> unhealthy. We're out of time. We have to
pause there. Yeah. Thank you for that
exchange.
>> Who put these here? Can someone remove
these off the set, please? Come on.
No,
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>> And now, let's get back to the video.
>> My next surrounded claim is that the
large food companies are one of the
primary beneficiaries of the body
positivity movement.
>> All right, if you want to be the next
debater, get to the chair in three, two,
one.
>> Hi.
>> Hi.
>> How are you? I'm Siobhan. Nice to meet
you, Siobhan.
So, what are you classifying as large
food companies?
>> Okay. Um, PepsiCo, Coca-Cola, uh,
General Mills. Okay. Now, if they were
beneficiaries and benefactoring and
making all this money off of the body
positivity movement, why is it that they
spend billions on calorie counting abs
on a lot of things that we see in
society as forcing the losing weight or
talking about losing weight cuz that to
me doesn't make sense and doesn't
correlate. But also people that are
benefiting from this are the people in
the body positivity movement themselves.
A little bit about myself.
>> Wait, can I clarify one thing? I'm I'm
talking predominantly about finance.
>> Okay.
>> Sorry.
>> Perfect. Thank you. Even even that I
still will say so I come from the
wedding industry. So I created the first
publication in the world for plus-siz
brides. I've now gotten 13 wedding
publications around the world. And my
biggest thing is is the wedding industry
is very centric on this is what the
wedding industry looks like. I have
created a platform where body and not
just largerbodied
body positivity but body positivity for
all sizes and I'm going to come
specifically from the wedding industry
which is very different I know but it
still is a very weight ccentric.
>> Okay. Yes.
>> So so your argument is the the wedding
industry is the primary beneficiary. I'm
not saying that. I'm saying that's where
my knowledge come from. But the body
positivity movement
>> is really for us. We are the main and
I'm saying we because I'm a large body
person.
>> Totally understand.
>> That's where it's really coming from.
>> The way they're exploiting it.
>> Oh, please.
>> Okay. So, there have been two really big
exposees. One by the Washington Post and
one by the Examiner.
>> So, they're coming at this from numerous
angles. So the first one is they've gone
after a lot of the intuitive eating
dieticians.
>> Okay.
>> So let me just can I give you some
statistics?
>> Please, please, please.
>> Okay. So Washington Post analyzed more
than 6,000 social media posts by 68
registered dietitians with a combined
reach of over 9 million followers. 40%
of them were using the anti-diet
language, right? Like food freedom, no
food rules, ditch the diet, healthy in
any size, so on and so forth. very often
not disclosing the fact that they were
paid by the big food companies.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So, they're basically going after
the intuitive eating dietitians. I can
give you Abby Sharp.
>> That's okay though. But, but but I want
you to listen
>> because they are doing that.
>> Yes.
>> But the aspect that the body positive
movement is really for us, that is not
even anywhere we need to equate into it.
It really
>> with you when they're using their
movement. But that but do you and I'm
going to say this clearly and for right
now. I don't care who uses my
movement. I want the movement to be
there and that right there they can take
it. It's marketing and sales 101. Of
course they're going to use the
movement.
>> But then you guys say you don't get to
co-opt our movement.
>> That's not for me to do. I don't care
about that. The thing is is we don't
care. But it's not about we should. We
are doing what we're doing because this
is our family. This is our world. It
doesn't matter about what do you think I
but the thing is we don't care. We are
the movement.
>> But there are a lot of people that are
being hurt by this and these guys
essentially are engineering food to be
addictive to quite
>> and and you know what and I will say
this. I will say this. I will give you
the claps on that. I will say yes
>> that is true. But what I do want to say
is that that it is happens all the time.
A movement starts and someone comes in
and takes it and someone comes in and
comes in it and someone comes in and
runs.
>> You don't deny it. You just don't care.
That's what you're saying.
>> No, I'm saying it's fine for them to do
that. But the bigger issue that I want
you to realize is that the body
positivity movement is ultimately for
us. If someone wants to come and get on
our coattail, that's perfectly fine. But
for us, it doesn't need to go away. It
doesn't need to go anywhere.
to go away.
>> But I'm I'm suggesting
>> now see there's the suggestion. I like
it. I like a suggestion.
>> I'm suggesting that it could evolve that
you guys could call out when you're
co-opted that you could centralize
messaging so that it's NOT ALL OVER THE
PLACE. NO,
>> I am not opposed to I'm not opposed to
that.
>> I'm not saying it should that's not a
claim.
>> No, but the thing is is I want you to
know who the true beneficiaries are.
You're saying that they are the main
beneficiar financially. I apologize and
that's okay. But you're saying the claim
says that the large food companies are
the main beneficiaries of the body
positive movement. That is not correct.
>> I understand
>> because we are the main people. We are
the main beneficiaries of the body
positive movement. If someone wants to
come and get on our co go ahead
>> disagree with you on that. I think
that's a mistake
>> and that's okay.
>> I think that you guys could tell them
you could expose what they're doing and
like can I can I read you something
else? It is I'm I'M HERE TO HEAR THIS
HOW great
>> how diabol diabolical this is. Okay.
>> I have a friend that's on the inside and
he sent me this. He goes I just want to
show you the ways in which this is being
in the inside of of uh I can't say the a
big you got it. Exactly. Okay. So, so
here's the intentional message overlap
right. So healthy at every size. Quote
you can be healthy in any size.
Corporate benefit. Removes health
concern barrier to sales. Stay with me.
Okay.
>> Dieting doesn't work. Protects snack
foods from being cut.
Healthy at any size. Weight and health
are unrelated. Corporate benefit.
Deflects from products causing obesity.
Healthy at any size. Weight stigma
causes disease, not weight. Wait.
>> Okay. I'm going I'm just showing you
this is this is
>> to bring what I would love and I'm
saying love cuz I want it but I love it
more.
>> If there is such a resistance to the
body positive movement and I'm speaking
specifically kind of from your
standpoint. Yes.
>> If there's such a resistance to the body
positive movement why are you saying why
are you letting them take money from
you? But why is there resistance
resistance of acknowledging or saying
that it's actual that it needs to be?
>> I think that there are absolutely I
think that intuitive eating is a goal
not a treatment plan. Um I think that
having access to health which is what
healthy size would at every size was
initially intended to do. I think all
those things are important. I think
unfortunately the fact that the movement
is decentralized, okay, and it's prone
to being co-opted, it can do harm in the
ways that I have shown you. That's what
I'm saying.
>> And that we could agree to I could agree
to pause there. That's good.
>> We got to pause there. You've been voted
out by the majority.
>> Well, I really appreciate this.
>> This was Thank you very
So, I really want to focus on what
you've just been saying about the
co-opting of the movement because what
you seem to be critiquing is the people
who've co-opted the movement, not the
people who actually built the movement,
not the people who actually are the
movement.
>> So, so the the idea that
>> is the movement though. So, the thing is
I don't want to name names, but there
are many okay influencers who have said
these things. So, who's the movement?
Influencers and activists are not
necessarily the same thing. We were
allegedly invited here as activists and
advocates. Not always the same thing,
right?
>> Disagree, but it's become, as I
mentioned, a patchwork quilt of like I'm
an activist, I'm an influencer, I'm a
dietitian, it it's whereas like when you
look at something like aa
>> Well, let me so let me guide you to
something very clear about the health at
every size movement. Health at every
size is actually a registered trademark
of the association for size, diversity,
and health. So when people are misusing
that
>> we are a movement that doesn't have the
same resources as the health and
wellness industry or the health and
wellness grifters um or the major food
industry, right? We don't have those
same resources to fight every time
somebody misuses our terminology, our
philosophies, our practices, our values.
But there are some of us out there who
are doing that, right?
>> I never see the caveats. I never ever
see the freaking caveats. So one thing
maybe today you could maybe you could
help amplify some of THE CAVITY YOU
HAVE.
>> I am doing that right now.
>> Okay. So let's go to the claim.
>> The claim that body positivity is
primarily benefiting big food companies.
>> I I mean financially.
>> I got it.
>> Cuz individual benefit I can't I can't
it's not quantifiable. I'm talking about
the way these bastards are manipulating
this message
>> to to do things that I think are very
unethical. So if body positivity is
feeding their profits, will we see their
profits reduce as this pendulum swing
away from body positivity continues to
go back to the um you know like I get
asked all the time as the director of
NAFA is body positivity over? Is body
positivity over because of body
positivity over because of maha? You
know, is body positivity over? Part of
my argument is it depends on what you're
in body positivity for. If you're in it
for systemic change, it ain't over
because the system ain't changed. Right.
Right. But I do concede the point that
like we are moving away from some of
what we saw as body positivity for the
last 1015 years.
>> And what do you mean by that?
>> As we move away from that, it's less
popular. It's less trendy. We're moving
more towards a thin ccentric ideal again
or you know leaving behind we we've
labeled body positivity DEI and we're
turning away from that. Whatever. As we
move away from that,
>> are we going to see the profits of these
food industries drop?
>> Well, you are. Why would you need to
make food genetically addictive if body
positivity can just sell that food? If
you could just tell people when you feel
good in your body, you're going to eat
all the Nabiscoco snacks that you want
to, then why do we have to make them
addictive?
>> They don't even want you to stop eating
one chip. Can Can This is how this is
how incremental
>> they are about this.
>> They literally engineer just Okay, just
just hear me out. They don't even want
you to have to stop and take a drink of
water when you're eating their chips.
So, they engineer how much fat is in
your mouth and each bite. There are a
team of multidisciplinary scientists
that literally work around the clock
24/7, day after day, year after year.
>> Body positivity science.
>> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no. [laughter]
>> So, but so this is the thing. What
you're describing is a misuse of
science. What you're describing is, you
know, what you're describing isrict
business. What you're describing is
capitalism. What you're describing is
greed.
>> Yes.
>> Body positivity is not the reason for
that.
>> No, I'm suggesting
that I think you guys should get pretty
freaking vocal and pissed because these
guys are actively manipulating your
message so much. I haven't even gotten
to half the that they do. So, for
example, they have effectively lobbied
to remove nutrition guidelines and
warning labels on food packaging because
of harmful shame. It's like it trans
fats are bad for your health.
>> Okay. It's a fact.
>> They have advocated for that.
>> The body positivity movement, the fat
activist movement, the fat, they're
using our language, right? Like you
said, co-opting.
>> Yes.
>> Right. So, they should stop co-opting
our [laughter]
>> I But they're not going to.
>> Yes. That's what I'm saying.
>> You guys should get pissed about it.
Like I I get the things you're pissed
at.
>> We are pissed about a lot of things.
>> I get it. Can you add this to the list?
Add this.
>> I'm saying they're the primary. You want
to indict someone.
>> It is on the list for some people whose
focus is body positivity, right? We have
different folky. I, you know, I do civil
rights stuff. Some people do fashion
stuff, wedding industry, health, you
know, health and wellness, eating
disorders. We have the there are folks
who are thinking about the food
industry. There are folks who are
nutritionists who are you know like I
can't without seeing the list of like
the people that I the I remember the
Washington Post article some of those
people are not people that I would
associate with us
>> I understand but they're literally many
of them are certified in intuitive
eating
>> okay sharp
>> okay but that's not health at every size
intuitive eating is not a healthy
>> size part of the my problem with the
movement is that it's like oh but it's
not it's not that part but it but it is
that part.
>> You're saying our problem is that we
conflate that all the things get
conflict.
I'm saying my I'm saying my issue
>> is that because it's become a patchwork
quilt, an amalgamation of movements and
voice. Oh, it's an activist. It's a it's
a it's a political it's a it's an
influencer. It's a celebrity. It's a it
there's no accountability for any of
this. There's no through line. And it
allows exploitation that I think can be
hurtful.
>> What the Why isn't the entire public
holding food companies
>> accountable for food company evils?
>> I think why is it the why is it aren't
>> you don't think so? I mean they're
they're re-evaluating the generally
recognized as safe rule. They just
changed the food pyramid which guides
>> Do you want to talk about that one? It
guides hundreds of billions of dollars
in subsidies and now they're
>> mandating is
>> I'm saying focused on the definitely
focus on it. They're part of it.
>> Okay.
>> I think there are a lot of people that
are focused on
>> You do understand how how and why they
have significantly more resources than
actual body positive activists. Right.
>> Saying that they don't have more
resources. I'm saying can you see this
issue?
What do we do about it?
>> Um well, do you think it's a problem? I
think it's a problem.
>> I I mean I think there are a lot of
problems. I think one of the problems is
the assumption that everything that has
to do with um with with food and its
lack of health correlates with fatness
because we are saying body positivity
obesity thing again.
>> Well, no. Well, if I'm we are saying
body positivity and body positivity
includes all kinds of ways of being in a
body, right? Not just body size. It
includes all of the things about
disability and skin color and hair
texture and all of the things, right?
Body positivity. Well, we really have
been coding that in this conversation to
talk about body size, right? And and you
can understand
>> talking about Okay. I I actually didn't
think body positivity, to be dead honest
with you, I've never interpreted body
positivity to be about skin color or
gender ideology.
>> But some of I I didn't started body
positivity and practice it today and
talk about the values that uh
>> I don't think anybody sees it that way.
It that is not a part of the movement. I
think the general presumption
>> the general presumption is that it must
focus on weight and weight loss because
that's a bigger narrative in the culture
than
>> that is who we are seeing advocate.
We're not seeing a person who's black
being like I'm body positive because I'm
black. They're in they're generally in a
different civil rights movement.
>> Well, I think that discounts the black
leadership in this movement, right?
movement. I very rarely see,
>> okay,
>> people of color simply based on
prejudice regarding their skin color
using body positivity to make their
point. I see them and like this is a
movement. I see people
>> you see people who have multiple
identities that include their skin
color, their gender presentation, their
disability talking about body positivity
related to their body size and those
other issues. We had somebody else
earlier talk about that. I I I just I've
never seen it in all the years like I
I've seen activ
here seen that.
>> Hang on. What you started What you
started, right? Or I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
the organization that you work for.
>> Yes.
>> Had to do with a gentleman that started
this organization because his wife,
label it however you would. I don't know
what word you you guys feel comfortable
with.
>> We've been using fat for 57 years. So
fat's okay.
>> Okay.
>> Yes.
>> But see, okay,
you are. But listen, Jillian, you've
positioned yourself, you've positioned
yourself as really really knowing this
movement and really knowing where we're
showing up. And it is really really
common for activists and advocates to
talk about using fat as being
overweight.
>> We just say fat, right?
>> Okay fine. So this was started by a
gentleman whose wife was fat who was
discriminated against. That's where your
part began. Intuitive eating
came into it through body positivity. I
understand
movement start.
>> That's how my organization started. The
movement started with black women and
fems in the civil rights movement with
with women with people at Stonewall who
were fat people with fat performance.
That's how the
>> What's the through line though?
>> What's the through line?
>> What do you mean?
>> Okay. So So people at Stonewall is it
because they were gay or because they
were gay and as you guys say fat,
>> right? Is it
>> It was because they were gay but there
were fat people there and those fat
people talked about their fat body.
Guys, gay people are part of the body
positivity movement.
>> Uh, a huge part of being
>> ON THE MERITS OF JUST being gay, guys.
That's what I'm not gay and
>> defending people's body sovereignty,
people's body autonomy, uh, people's
right to live freely in their body.
>> What is the premise of discrimination
started with regard to being that am I
right? That is what he started your
organization organization. Okay. Healthy
at every size. the beginning of
>> it is about access for people, right?
And health that every size principles
talk about intersectionality and multi
multiply marginalized people.
>> Not health
piece of the movement.
>> I'm sorry. We got to pause, guys. You've
been voted out by the majority. Please
return to your seat.
So, one thing that I want to clarify, I
said it on the sidelines, which I know I
shouldn't do, but it's health at every
size, not healthy at every size. And
you've misspoken that just a couple
times. I think it's important just for
the audience to know that. Um, because
there's a really big distinction there.
>> Yes, you're absolutely right. And I
think it started as health at every
size. And I think now it has been
co-opted by many or misinterpreted,
misutili. You don't think so. Okay. seen
very many people say I can be healthy at
any size.
>> Well, I think I mean I think that
>> there are very many people and I have
debated with very many people who've
utilized that point.
>> Well, I do I mean I personally believe
you can be healthy at any size.
>> I don't.
>> Okay, that's fine. We I'm not going to
debate that point because I don't think
that that's what we're talking about
right now. So, I want to come back to
when you were saying that, you know, big
food is profiting off of the body
positivity movement and that's like a
really terrible bad thing. Okay.
>> I don't think it's good. Okay. So, what
is what is your fear with that? Like
what's the cons what's I want to
understand your concern.
>> My god, I don't think we have enough
time for me to tell you how deep my
concerns are.
>> Let's do the TDRL. The one didn't read.
I think that they Okay, let's let's go
back God. All right, if we go back to
the 70s,
uh, or or like late 60s, 5% of American
adults were obese or overweight, right
now it's 74%. Like, what happened? Did
everybody just have a moral failing? Was
it a quantum leap in genetics?
>> They changed the BMI.
What I'm talking No,
>> look at pictures. at pictures of
>> it's more than BMI.
>> Childhood obesity did not even it wasn't
even a thing. Type 2 diabetes is used to
be called adult onset diabetes. What
happened over the last 50 years? And
what I'm saying is I don't think it's a
sudden moral failure. I don't think it's
because 74% of American adults are lazy
and weak and stupid and pathetic. I
don't think so at all.
>> That is a moral failure. No, you're
misunderstanding what I'm saying. I
think it's not.
>> I think
>> But you do think it's an individual's
>> responsib
>> responsibility when they do become in a
fat body.
>> I think that the system is largely
rigged and 74% of American adults are
having a real hard time fighting against
it for a host of reasons. Hold on, for a
host of reasons. One of those big
reasons, one of those huge reasons is
big food. And when you look at Big Wait,
can I want to pause you there because if
I know that you're very big in the maja
movement and you're saying they're doing
all of this amazing stuff, but then they
cut SNAP benefits and so access to food
is such a huge reason for people to be
able to have a nutritious diet. So, how
can you explain that when you're saying
that big food is awful, terrible, all of
these things, but then still align
yourself with the movement that cut
billions of dollars to people to get
access to food
>> that Okay, hold on. I'm I am not saying
this movement is perfect, but I would
not like to see people what what is
called nutrition assistance. I don't
think that's soda and chips and candy.
Now, having changed the food pyramid,
it's calories. It's not nutrition. I do
think changing the food pyramid has now
mandated that access to the foods on the
food pyramid is going to make it more
available and it's going to take the
hundreds of billions of our tax dollars
that these guys captured in a subsidy
flow. They c the food pyramid is not
about guidance for you, me, you. The
food pyramid is about grabbing $600
billion dollars over the past two
decades to grow ultrarocessed food from
the shitty ass GMO crops that are
covered in poison that then get grabbed
by big food and loaded with more poison
and then tinkered with so you quite
literally cannot eat just one. I think
these guys are devil. I do. and and the
depth of my feeling about this
unfortunately like this is what I mean I
don't if we if we're going to indict
someone like when you look at intuitive
eating it's awesome in theory feel your
fullness you can't you cannot
>> I disagree with that though
>> we're out of time thank you
>> my next surrounded claim is that the
body positivity movement oversimplifies
disordered eating and trauma
>> all right whoever wants to be the next
debater get to the chair in Three, two,
one.
[laughter]
>> I'm not going to assume, but I imagine
you have some sort of maybe personal
experience with eating disorders or
disordered eating.
>> Um, definitely as a kid uh would
overeat. I wouldn't say binge eating
disorder, but I would compulsively
overeat. I would eat uh to have a
connection with my father. I would eat
to feel a sense of comfort. I would eat
to feel a sense of control. Um, without
question.
>> And did you feel shame and then go to
therapy to work on that or did you just
>> I definitely
>> oversimplify it and then kind of
>> I didn't over I was 13, 14 and 15 and so
I didn't have the bandwidth
>> uh to process what was actually going
on. Um, I was in therapy for other
things that were going on in my
household and I definitely
[clears throat]
was helped.
>> Okay. So, um I'm glad that you were able
to, you know, go to therapy. That's not
something that everyone is able to go
to. It's a it's a luxury and a privilege
for a lot of people, especially the
United States. Um I have dealt with an
eating disorder since I was seven.
That's when it was first realized. It
wasn't diagnosed at seven, but it was
realized at that point. Um and my body
fluctuated. I'm not going to use numbers
because I think there are a lot of
people that um have disordered eating
that use numbers as a metric. And so
they'll look at me and they'll I'll say
a metric and then it'll it'll cause um
someone to be um someone to have what I
like to call a shift in where they are
now to where they're going to be down
like a rabbit hole of disordered eating
behaviors. Um and um I think that trauma
and eating disorders go hand in hand. Um
but they're not exclusive. There are
people that don't necessarily have any
trauma but somehow have developed some
sort of eating disorder. my my eating
disorder um was something that I I had
from a really young age and then just
worsened because of my physical
perception around people but it wasn't
something that um innately was
traumabased um I am neurode divergent
and it was never diagnosed until I was
okay you know almost 30 so but that's
not because of trauma that's just
because of my neurode divergence that's
how my brain is connected and so
sometimes with neurovigent people they
have eating rituals eating routine
that are rigid. And so that's where mine
came from. So to say it's
oversimplifying
um EDS like body positivity is
oversimplifying EDS, oversimplifying
trauma. You're taking away the the the
people that um that use the body
positivity moment to find someone who
they can relate to and so they someone
that they can connect with that doesn't
have the same road that maybe the the
the masses had but has their same road.
>> You've been voted out by the majority.
[laughter]
Please return to your seat.
>> Hi.
>> Hi.
>> I'm Summer. How are you
>> Jillian? Nice to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Okay. So, the body positivity movement
actually got me out of my eating
disorder. And if that's okay, I would
like to tell you a little bit about it.
>> Absolutely.
>> So, growing up, I wasn't ever fat. I
just have like I have large breasts, so
I have got a condition basically. I know
you're laughing.
>> I'm laughing because that would be my
dream. That's the only reason I'm
laughing. [laughter] I WAS LIKE, POOR
YOU, SUMMER. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Not to
not to try to invalidate how you feel.
>> That's okay. That's okay. Sorry. Go
ahead. Um, so I basically I've got a
condition called macroastia. Um, it
means that my breasts will just
continuously keep growing. Um, so I had
to deal with this like my whole
childhood and I got like pecked on and
bullied and stuff because I was 8 years
old with like double days. So that's
absolutely okay. I went to the doctors
and they actually told me that I had to
lose weight in order to get a reduction.
Um, at this point I was actually a
Scottish size six, which is a UK size
two. Um, so like on the bottoms, just
obviously not on my top. Uh, so this
actually drove me into an eating
disorder. And I started to starve myself
and try and make myself thinner so that
my breasts would get smaller and that
never ever happened. Like they just
continuously because it's a it's
obviously a condition. So they just kept
getting bigger as I was getting smaller
and smaller. Um, and it wasn't until
obviously the online platform made the
body positivity movement more aware to
me and then that made that really really
helped me and it's made made me start
eating more. It made me start posting
more online about my body and I just
think that your claims a little bit
silly.
>> Can I give you can I give you some
examples of
>> course please. So,
while intuitive eating is actually not
intended for people with eating
disorders, I cannot tell you how many
people have misinterpreted that. And
I've ended up dealing with it personally
for quite some time now. So, for
example, things like avoid diets where
mechanistic
eating is actually recommended for
people with many different types of
eating disorders. And even the women who
started intuitive eating suggested that
like hey this is a goal not a treatment
plan. But when you've got I mean random
people online who are hey you know just
listen to your feelings of fullness you
can't do that when you're anorexic. Your
body no longer recognizes those satiety
cues. It it absolutely shuts it down
when it's oh what was it? Uh listen to
your hunger. Like these are you cannot
do that if you have binge eating
disorder and you're feeding a deeper
hunger. It's the fundamental ways in
which things like intuitive eating have
been misrepresented by the masses. And
of course I understand what it was
intended for. But if you think that the
vast majority of these people posting on
TikTok have read the freaking guidelines
of mechanistic eating, I think we're
both dreaming.
>> No, I get that. But I think the thing in
my head is like, why do you care so much
about someone else's body in order to
like try and argue against body
positivity? Like say someone's like fat,
obese, whatever, walking on the street.
That doesn't actually affect you as a
person.
>> Totally right.
>> So I don't understand why you would feel
the need to fight for people that are
arguing for that person to feel
validated as a person.
>> I'm not arguing for the person. I don't
know. However, there are people that do
want help and I think that this can
leave them feeling exceptionally
confused. Uh, and there are many that I
have tried to personally help that have
experienced
feeling misled, misguided by some of the
or almost almost all of the intuitive
eating principles and they're not being
educated on. You could also argue like
the latter,
>> but there are a lot of people that
actually want help and I care that they
they get the most,
>> but I don't think the body positivity
movement is like just for obese people,
just for people that are drastically
need help.
>> Anorexia is not obesity.
>> So, I was anorexic and the body
positivity movement helped me. Do you
not think that the body positive
movement helps them rather than shaming
them? Because that's how they get in
that place in the first place with other
people shaming them constantly. I am not
suggesting anyone should be shamed.
You're completing two different issues.
I I don't think that people
>> I think in one it's all one issue.
>> It's not though, sweetheart. You're
telling me that you think uh I you think
I think shame is awesome. I I don't
>> No, I didn't. I didn't.
>> I think that these tools or things like,
oh, you know what? It's society. It's
diet culture. It's this. It's that. It's
bigotry. I like No, dude. It's probably
the fact that like somebody,
God forbid, touched you when you were a
kid.
>> I don't think that's appropriate or even
right
>> in the slightest. But no one touched me.
>> No, not you, dude. I'm not talking about
you. I'm No, I completely get that. And
I'm not talking about mentioning like
parents. I have two very loving parents.
My parents never made me feel shamed
about my body. It was like TV shows like
The Biggest Losers. In the UK, we've got
um super size versus super skinny. Like,
it was all of these TV shows that made
me feel like this. It wasn't my parents.
>> I'm going to suggest that I don't think
you would be vulnerable
to TV shows.
>> Why?
>> If there wasn't a primary injury because
who cares, buddy? Do you know how much
stuff like goes after me personally or
after people of color or after gay
people or after like
>> you have to remember I'm quite young. So
when these came out I was very young,
very impressionable and I have like
adults telling me that my body because
my BMI is higher. I have adults telling
me that my body is like you have to lose
weight to fit in with normal people.
Like you're young when you're impression
and for you to be arguing against like
body positivity like I hope you don't
have a daughter
>> because my little sister like
>> needs the body positivity movement. I
think people need the body positivity
movement cuz without it everyone's just
going to be looking at other people
judging other people. Like I'm sure
>> you think the body positivity movement
is stopping people from being
>> No, that's not what I see.
>> I I think you're not right about that.
>> No, that's not what I said. So, as you
said, you think it stops people from
judging other people.
>> Yeah. Well, I'm sure that's going to
happen.
>> They're going to hide it from their size
or what they're
>> Of course they are.
>> They're not.
>> Okay. Okay. Pause. You've been voted out
by the majority.
>> Please return to your
>> Nice to meet you. So I think the the
language there is a little bit tonedeaf
just because I actually believe that gym
talk diet culture oversimplifies
eating disorders.
>> Two separate issues though. Both can be
true at the same time.
>> Both can be true as in
>> as in you could absolutely be making
first of all gym talk should have
nothing to do with eating disorder. So
you're right. But it's a separate issue
than the claim I'm making.
>> How is it separate?
>> Well, okay. So you're saying gym talk
oversimplifies trauma and eating
disorders, right?
>> Well, not just gym talk, but just the
way that our youth, all of us are,
>> we are all exposed to that, like we
can't just avoid it. And when you
>> a separate issue though, I I'm trying to
say that the ways body positivity
suggests
people deal with body issues and trauma
is an oversimplification and it has to
do with things like intuitive eating
principles that get misrepresented by
influencers.
>> Okay, I can I can definitely agree with
that.
>> Well, then unfortunately you and I so
far are on the same page. Well, no. I
think well, well, the way I see it is
that body positivity is actually the
bridge between health experts and
anybody else really.
>> Explain it.
>> Because I think that
if I go to a doctor, it should be
empowering for me to talk about my body,
>> of course.
>> However, when I usually speak to a
health expert, it's really not. I'm
really more just afraid that they're
going to speak to me in a way that
degrades my body and makes me feel that
shame that you've mentioned. Shame is
not a motivator. It really turns people
away. Whereas the body positivity
movement teaches people to have the kind
of confidence they need to make choices
for themselves.
>> Teaching that
>> when you look at yourself in the mirror
and you tell my yourself I'm ugly. I'm
fat. I'm gross. I I don't deserve to be
you know alive to like some people get
to that extent right
>> I understand
>> when you do that to yourself
>> that is not going to motivate you to
then go make the choices that I think we
all know are healthy for us totally
agree
>> which which doesn't
>> then what's the next step though dude
>> I think that's what we're here looking
to speak about I think actually
[laughter]
I'm healed
>> so that's not that's not what body
positivity that's not what body
positivity is body positivity is
promoting the healing of said wounds.
>> How how
>> by by telling you it's an
oversimplification.
>> It's not though because
>> how is it going to heal you by looking
in the mirror and saying
>> looking in the mirror and and saying
these shameful things to yourself. You
already know that it degrades you and
you're not going to want to do the
things that
>> most people comes after deciding not to
beat yourself up. We're both on the same
page there. Now get below the tip of
your iceberg different perspectives of
the same page. Right? And I that's why I
do believe that body positivity is the
bridge that we all need.
>> Tell me what comes after the moment you
decide you're not going to say that
in the mirror anymore. Then what?
>> Then I should be able to consult health
experts that are also body positive
towards my body.
>> No one's saying not to.
>> Okay. So show so tell us who the health
experts are that are body positive
because if I should be able to go to a
doctor
>> would you want when you say body
positive what kind of health expert are
you looking for? I know a million
doctors and all of them would love to
help somebody whether
>> but what is help is help saying you need
to get your your ass in the gym you need
to restrict your eating
>> you know what help is for you when you
go to that
>> that's what I think everybody should
have the opportunity and confidence to
do and that's what body positivity is
teaching people it's not teaching people
that they're perfect in the mirror and
that they don't deserve to have the
courage to change
>> you still haven't given me a how all
you're telling me I think we all are
here figure out how because nobody has
the answer.
>> That is not true. Many people have the
answer, sweetheart. Psychoanalysts have
the answer.
>> I'm sorry. I don't like to be called
sweetheart when we're like debating. But
[laughter] many people have the answer.
>> And so, but you believe you have the
answer and you believe that somehow body
positivity is not involved in bettering
yourself. I just think that's
contradictory. I really do. I don't see
how I I think that there are absolutely
experts that have the answer and it's
more than platitude.
>> So what is the answer then to you if
it's if it's not
>> getting treatment with a person who's
gone to school and specializes in
>> that would be great if you feel welcomed
and comfortable in that person's space.
>> There are many experts in the world that
would welcome especially ones that
specialize in this category of medicine.
But in this category of medicine, if
there's not room for body positivity,
then you're saying that's not the claim
is that there's not room. I said it
oversimplifies.
>> It oversimplifies. Are you saying
>> it oversimplifies people's trauma?
>> No, I'm telling you, it oversimplifies
the complexity and the depth of these
types of disorders. Whether it's
anorexia, whether it's bulimia, whether
it's binge eating disorder, whether
somebody is eating and somewhere was not
referring to you, somebody's eating
because let's say they were molested and
now they
>> Okay, but you saying you bringing up
somebody's like eating because they were
molested. I mean most people that's not
why like necessarily people are eating.
>> I think that's what the claim is about.
It is about the fact that people who
have disordered eating and trauma, I
think the body positivity movement with
things like intuitive eating
specifically oversimplify and can
actually give bad advice. But the
fundamentals of
>> pause, you've been voted out by the
majority. Please return to your seat.
>> Hi.
>> I've been on a diet since I was like
six. Okay.
>> You've talked a lot about trauma, being
molested,
>> parents, this and that.
>> Yes.
>> I've heard of someone mentioned the BMI.
I've heard people use the word obese.
>> Okay.
>> So, what is your thought on this
oversimplification? I think actually the
medical industry and a lot of health
professionals have oversimplified.
>> I'm sorry if that's happened to you. I
think you're seeing the wrong people. I
know a lot of really good people.
>> But that's also privilege. Of course,
you know a lot of good people. You're a
rich white woman who's been on
television and I would love to know, you
know, somebody mentioned books. Totally.
Oh, I could read a book. I've read a lot
of diet books. Jillian,
>> not a diet book
>> or [clears throat] whatever. What kind
of book? A self-help book.
>> Well, I mean, if you're struggling with
an eating disorder and you're telling me
I have no access to
>> Well, how do I know if I'm struggling
with an eating disorder? Where does
genetics play into all of this?
>> Do you want to take on genetics? We can.
>> Go ahead. Are you a scientist?
Do you think you have to be a scientist
to understand?
>> No, but I haven't heard one comment
about where do genetics in.
>> That's not the claim. If if you want to
get into genetics and obesity again,
first of all, obesity is a very outdated
term. It's based on the BMI, which is
based on white men in this. Come on,
Jillian. You could be single-handedly
responsible for updating the BMI.
>> Okay, but we also have waist to hip and
we have DEXA and we have MRI. But let's
be honest. What are the MRI? Meaning
like the machine most fat people don't
even fit in.
>> You have DEXA and you have
>> never heard of that girl. What's a DEXA?
These are normal people. We are on
TikTok.
>> Hold on. There's also been a lot of like
blame. Sure. Waist to hip ratio, but
that's also like skeletal and like
>> No, no, waist to hip is not. It has to
do with a ratio of your waist to your
hips and it's uh evidence.
Sorry to say. of excess visceral fat.
That's what it's for. And that's an
indicator of obesity.
>> So obesity, that term, what does that
mean to you?
>> Obesity, it means that you have an
unhealthy percentage of body fat.
>> What is healthy? What is unhealthy?
>> Like what is the measure of health for
human beings?
>> For women, I think it's in the 35 plus
percentile.
>> 35 plus percentile of what? By what
measure? The DEXA. 35% of your body
weight being comprised of body fat. The
thing that I think is most interesting
is you didn't get to earlier.
>> You didn't ask me earlier.
>> Well, I haven't gotten there is no with
someone else. You said cuz I'm seeing a
very different person, okay,
>> than from [clears throat] who we've seen
on television. And I think there's been
a lot of blame shifting to influencers
and Tik Tok. And the reality is, girl,
that's where we're all getting our info
now. I've never seen a full episode of
The Biggest Loser.
>> Okay.
>> Because my parents told me to watch it
and I said, "All the way off."
>> Right. But but you have no rage at your
parents whatsoever. Right.
>> Oh, well, I'm not fat because of the
rage of my parents.
>> All the way off. That doesn't sound like
a primary wound. Telling your parents to
all the way off the prim evidence of
what I'm saying.
>> Totally. Primary wound plus genetics
plus whatever choices I make in my life
is where what I can ask you something.
>> Pick the the argument we want to have.
Do you want to or a debate?
>> I want to hear who you are on the show.
Who that person is and was.
>> Okay.
>> And who this person is now? Because I'm
>> Same person. It's not at all. Can I say
something?
>> You just told me you never watched an
episode of Biggest.
>> No, but I've seen Tik Tok clips. I saw
the documentary. I mean,
>> have you ever seen a full episode, let's
say, with one of my contestants like
Abby Wright?
>> Tell me about the show. Tell me
whatever. Tell me who you were on the
show. Tell me where that Jillian
Michaels cuz to be honest, we've all
chirp for it.
>> Okay. I'm the exact same person that you
see now.
>> Now, of course, yes, you would see parts
of what I was doing. You would never see
the entire picture of what I was doing,
and you would never understand why I was
doing it.
>> So, let me address the part that you're
thinking of. Okay?
>> I had a contestant
um 500 lb.
>> This contestant in particular had an
exceptionally traumatic background. Can
I tell you about it or you don't care?
Okay. So, her mother was a prostitute.
Uh,
>> a sex worker. We say now
>> her mother was a sex worker. If if if
that makes you feel
>> sex is real work.
>> Okay, that's a separate debate. And I'm
not the Let's stay on point. Let's stay
on point before we get into all the woke
ideology. So having said that,
the contestant named Sheay, her mother
used to sleep with men for heroin while
she was locked in a closet.
And she's going to go home based on the
percentages. I didn't make the game. Not
a producer.
>> Very publicly had issues with the name
and the gamification.
So I don't want her to go home and
certain things need to happen before I
feel and I have seen that there would be
any hope of her being able to live past
40 years old. And she has all of the
things type 2 diabetes, the beginnings
of chronic kidney disease, arterial
plaque, all the things that are
legitimately alarming.
So I can't get her on this freaking
ladder. It's day one. Can't get her on
for 15 seconds. Tried everything. Cannot
get her on this ladder for 15 seconds.
And we're playing this out. And we're
playing it out. Not getting anywhere.
Because the story is I'm weak. I'm fat.
I'm worthless. I'm this. I'm that. All
the internalized shame.
And at that moment, I've pretty much
tried everything. What you don't see is
this has gone on for about 4 hours and I
can't get her on the freaking ladder.
She comes in the room and I'm like, "All
right, that's it." I'm like, "God damn
it. Get on this ladder. I swear to God.
Get on ladder or you're going to go
home. Get on the ladder." Going crazy.
And I'm utilizing her fear of me quite
honestly to circumvent the story that
she thinks is true. Long story short,
she gets on the ladder, she climbs 15
seconds. Show up the next day. She's
like, "I got back on the ladder for 15
minutes last night." I was like, "That's
awesome, dude."
>> And she ended up losing 300 lb.
>> Mhm.
>> So, you may not agree with it,
>> but it worked for me, and it worked for
Shay in that moment. You don't know why
I'm doing it. You don't understand that
it's a life or death intervention on a
ticking clock.
>> You don't understand all the other
things I've tried.
>> So, I kind of don't care what she does.
>> How much of her weight did she gain
back?
She gained well oh good one
>> because 95% of diets don't work
>> not not my contestants 35% of them kept
the weight off which is actually
exceptional and I could give you all the
names if 5% are able to keep it off
there obviously a host of myriad of
reasons as to why that's the case
>> but if I had a 35% success rate can you
at least conceded that maybe I'm doing a
little bit better than the norm than the
baseline I can agree that the number one
celebrity trainer in the entire world
has a success rate that I can
They said keep it off. They kept it off.
I got
>> 30% of people that went on a public TV
show%.
>> All right, we got to pause there. We are
out of time.
>> My final surrounded claim is that the
body positivity movement is
fundamentally disempowering.
>> If you want to be the next debater,
please get to the chair in three, two,
one.
>> Hi, nice to meet you.
>> Hi, nice to meet you. Pleasure.
>> Hi, Zane.
>> What form or what do you mean it's
disempowering? Well, I perceive it as
follows. First, it's externalized shame.
>> As opposed to appreciating that this is
something that does arise within. And if
you'll hear me all the way out, I think
I can illustrate that for many it is
actually a choice, which I know sounds
shocking to you, but just just stay with
me. So, it externalizes it first and
then it invalidates it right off the
top, right? It's bad, it's evil, it's
this, it's that instead of like what can
we explore? what can we learn here?
>> And then it replaces it with things that
I think are platitudes and really
difficult to believe. Like, oh no, I'm
perfect. I'm beautiful. This, that, but
>> it's not so easy to just believe those
things. There's a lot of work that comes
along with believing those things. So,
it can feel like gaslighting. And then
the last thing is like anybody who tells
you otherwise gets framed as a
victimizer and concern
can be shut down where I think it might
be necessarily appropriate.
>> So the way I would handle shame would be
very different than the way I perceive
the movement handling shame. And the
same with acceptance. I think acceptance
is key. But when I look at acceptance in
terms of helping people, I like the
serenity prayer best when it comes to
Alcoholics Anonymous, right? So it's
God, give me the strength to accept what
I cannot change, right? Give me the
courage to change the stuff I can and
give me the wisdom to know the
difference. I don't see two and three in
the movement, but but if you can
illustrate it for me.
>> Yeah. I like to kind of like just share
my personal story. And I do want to
share and I think it's important that at
my biggest I was 335 which you know that
that's my story and body positivity has
has given me the confidence
>> to in my opinion appropriately lose
weight cuz I've lost 80 pounds. I don't
think you have to do that. That's you
know a personal choice. I think it's all
about body sovereignty more about not
just losing weight. It's about what fits
in your body. What are the best health
choices for you specifically? It's
different for everyone. Everyone has
different goals. If it's building muscle
or losing fat or also just increasing
their mobility, I mean, I go to Pilates
and yoga and it's great for those kind
of things. It's super fun. But I think
for me that body positivity was the one
thing that really helped me feel
comfortable in my body. And what I can
say is, and I see body positivity as of
course, you know, just welcoming who you
are, accepting your body. And because I
was able to do that, I was able to, you
know, identify what I wanted to do with
my body, and that was to lose weight.
Again, not something that you have to
do. And I did it in a way where I
appreciated myself. I appreciated my
body rather than this inspiration of
hatred. I think there's some people that
are inspired by the hatred of their body
and that they'll lose weight even at a
rapid pace losing like 30 40 pounds a
month which we know is not healthy. You
know sometimes like losing like the
average person. Yes, I
>> agree. I think people agree that or I
I've seen like you know five to eight or
10 pounds a month is kind of what you
want to do in a healthy like rapid a way
to lose weight. And I think sometimes if
you're doing too much that's where it
can become realistic
>> and it can become unsustainable if that
can happen.
>> Absolutely.
>> So that's kind of what I would say and
because body positive was such a gateway
for me to accept my body. That's how I
think it's so appropriate and just so
amazing for people who and like you said
they are doing the work maybe not
necessarily physically but I think that
there is a mental component they have to
address because without that mental
component or that that mental work
you're doing again maybe they're just
exercising or losing weight or whatever
it is or changing their body altering it
out of shame rather than you know
>> my concern is that when I've worked with
people who are obese or overweight
>> they don't appreciate they They feel
victimized and by the way they they have
been victimized at one point or another
in their lives.
>> But if I cannot show them that where
they are now is ultimately their own
choosing,
>> then they're fundamentally disempowered
to make a different choice. So hear me
out on shame for a second. So the
movement is like diet culture does this
to me
>> and you know uh pick your I have a whole
list of stuff that you know beauty
standards does this to me media does
this to me all these different things do
this to you
>> to me that is a screen it's a projection
>> for when you actually first felt unloved
unsupported not validated right and it's
so much easier to say like Victoria's
Secret is me instead of
>> my mother never came to any of my
sporting events my father was an
alcoholic who never showed up for me. I
you know all of these different primal
wounds that occur when we're making
about this on the outside who gives
a
>> about Victoria's Secret dude. So then on
top of that, right, what I think most
people don't appreciate is that we end
up choosing shame not consciously. Have
you ever heard the quote, I'd rather be
a sinner in a world with a God than a
saint in a world without one? Mhm.
>> So in this analogy, the sinner is the
child and God is the parent.
>> All right, pause. You've been voted out
by the majority. Please return to
>> It's a wonderful [laughter] day.
>> Okay. It was a pleasure and thank you
for sharing your story.
>> Hi Sus.
>> Hi. Lovely to meet you.
>> You too. Um so you said something about
it being inherently disempowering
because you don't believe you can make
changes, right? Am I paras?
>> No, I'm I'm suggesting that there is no
framework. There's no now that we've
accepted where we are today, what can we
take responsibility for? And how can we
take action?
>> Sure. So, are you familiar? You brought
up a quote of your own. Are you familiar
with the quote to those accustomed to
privilege, equality can feel like
oppression?
>> Do you understand how weight is
interactive and intersectional with all
these other identities? When somebody is
a fat person, it intersects with other
aspects of the world that have
marginalized them.
>> Give me give me examples.
>> An example of a person or
>> No, no, no. Uh of how you're feeling in
ways you feel marginalized.
>> And listen,
who are you speaking for?
>> Um
anyone. I don't think it's about a
specific person. I think when you say
that it is important to take
responsibility for what you can change,
>> you have seem to have acknowledged that
at the beginning at that um first stage
of of acceptance or of understanding
that you are trying to acknowledge that
you can't hate yourself into a version
of yourself that you can love.
>> No, not really. You know, you but what I
do think, hear me out.
>> I do think that when you are feeling
>> pain or shame, it is a signal to
explore. I do think that and I
appreciate that you're coming at this
from a place that involves the mental
health as well. It sounds like you would
be pro therapy and pro understanding
where these roots come from. Yes.
>> Um but
again, you can't you can't change
yourself. You can't go into changing
yourself
from the expectation that that will make
you feel better about anything. And I
don't think that our choices to make
changes about oursel reflect more
self-love necessarily. They can. I think
if you choose to take Sorry, don't
interrupt me. Please continue.
>> If you are choosing to take care of
yourself that comes from something
within you that feels good for your
body. Okay. And so the body positivity
movement to me is not inherently about
it's not about taking you know diet
culture and just saying that is the root
of all evil. It and it amplifies the
ways that we have been harmed and feel
shame inside. It is a harmful thing that
actively causes pain.
>> Talk to me about what you would like to
see change.
>> Diet culture eradicated.
>> It's not going to though, buddy. And
here's the thing. Hear me. It's just
not. This is the world we live in,
right? There's
>> So, you think that's acceptable? We also
live in a world of racism and
homophobia. I don't understand.
>> But all the more to my point, right? So,
think of it as follows. I would say
there are probably millions of people
that hate me. I get death threats all
the time. Me,
>> too.
>> Oh, well, it is what? But wait, just
what you're saying there is acceptance.
>> Let me No, let me finish my thought.
What I'm telling you is that I don't
define my worth on the ways in which
external
>> Absolutely. No, fully agree with you
>> because I can't change that. I can
change how I respond to it. I can change
how I feel about it. But you are trying
to change the world because something
>> I think the world needs to be changed
>> and it it does. But we can't rely on
that for your feeling of well-being.
>> You're right. But we shouldn't rely on
validation that we are thin enough
either.
>> Who's relying on that?
>> Plenty of people. Do you realize 74% of
the country is overweight or obese?
>> All right, pause.
>> You've been voted out by the majority.
Please return to your seat.
>> I'm curious about what your definition
of body positivity is because you're
talking about shame and you're talking
about personal feelings and emotion and
I have a little bit different of a
definition of body positivity.
>> Some of yours. So when I think about the
body positivity movement, I actually
think about its roots in the fat rights
movement, which is where I work in the
60s. Yeah.
>> In the 60s. I run NAFA, which is a fat
organization that was founded in the
60s. And um
>> and when I think about the folks who
have been using that terminology since
the 70s, 80s, 90s, not just the people
who kind of popped up using it on
Instagram and Tumblr in the 2000s, but
that it goes has this long long history.
That long long history is actually about
body justice. I know
>> it's not just about individual feelings.
It's not just about, you know, my
mother-in-law said something to me at
dinner or my, you know, this guy didn't
want to date me because I was fat. It's
actually also about things like, do I
have access to health care, weight
neutral healthcare that actually treats
my s symptoms, not just my body, right?
Do I have access to equal pay? Do I have
um accommodations for the body that I'm
in right now, not the body that I might
be in someday? And so I think about
these systemic disenfranchisements and
discriminations that happen to people,
especially people in larger bodies. Y
>> and when I want to
embrace body positivity, it's more than
just that personal self-esteem piece.
>> But what you seem to be talking about is
the personal self-esteem.
>> Not true. Uh that's not just what I'm
talking about. And I'm not going to
disagree with you on any of what you
just said. I'm well aware of where this
started. And it was I think a gentleman
that was pretty upset about how his wife
was being treated, right? And he started
it.
>> How do you know that origin story?
>> I do know a lot about it. In my opinion,
there's no question it has been
co-opted. And when the vast majority of
your Tik Tok influencers don't know the
origin of your story and those messages
are communicated in 15-second memes,
>> then you own meme consequences. And
that's where I take umbrage with it. And
it's become this amalgamation
of rolling up different movements along
the decades. So we can't be like, well,
I'm going to carve out the part that's
the, you know, the rights piece and
forget. Don't don't look over here. I
look at it in its entirety and there are
parts of it that I take umbrage with.
>> That's how I feel about the health and
wellness industry, right? I look at it
in its entirety. There are parts that I
take umbrage with. And we, you know,
when you introduced yourself, you talked
about being a health advocate. Does your
advocacy include making sure that people
are not discriminated against?
>> Without question.
>> So, how do you do that with larger
bodies?
>> Well, personally, I don't get involved
in that kind of policy outside of what I
do in relationship to big agriculture,
big food, big pharma, big insurance.
That's my primary focus when it comes to
policy. To be dead honest, I think you
probably do a better job in this area
than I do. Um, but I would never ever uh
disagree with you here. Um, I would
cooperate with you in any way you ask me
to.
>> So, would you say that it should be
against the law to discriminate against
people based on their body size?
>> Unquestionably.
>> So, why don't we see more fitness and
wellness advocates asking for that?
>> I'm happy to ask for it. I'll ask for it
right now. I didn't know that you
thought I wasn't for it. Of course, I
feel that way. Well, I feel I I didn't
know your personal view on the laws
specifically or public policy
specifically in this particular civil
rights way, but certainly would you
agree with me that your industry is not
like we don't see a bunch of fitness
professionals coming out and being like,
"Hey, we should actually talk more about
the way that people are discriminated
against instead of, hey, we should
actually talk about how those people
should lose weight if they don't want to
be discriminated against."
>> Absolutely. Fair point.
>> Thank you.
>> [laughter]
>> Will you contact your representative AND
SAY IT TO THEM?
>> YOU'RE LOOKING AT HER. I'M LOOKING at
your help, girl. Just
>> I'm Y'all heard it right here. Jillian
Michael said, "I will I will contact my
representatives."
>> I'm right here.
>> Give me my cell phone.
>> All right. Pause.
>> Tiger has won her section of
>> Tiger.
>> Hi, my name is Rachel. [clears throat]
Nice to meet you, Rachel.
>> Um, a little bit of background on me
first. Um, I'm a personal trainer. Um, I
would consider myself a advocate for the
body positivity movement. Um, not
particularly an activist, but somebody
who supports all bodies being in the
fitness industry. Um,
but then we're talking about shame. So,
I'm trying to show you
why somebody would choose to internalize
a lack of worth, which results in toxic
shame. So, real quick, healthy shame is
if I acted like a douche to one of you
and I went home tonight and I was like,
"Oh god, I was feeling insecure. I was
feeling overwhelmed. I acted like an
I regret that. How can I change
that next time?" That's going to be
something very different. Ju just wait.
Just hold on. Okay. than something toxic
shame. You're bad. Not the thing you did
could improve. Not being
uh analytical and exploring your
behavior and agreeing to change it. So
toxic shame is the internalization
of not being good enough. Right? Yeah.
>> So what I'm trying to illustrate is that
many of the people who end up in that
position feeling that way
have chosen that feeling because it is
safer than accepting
you were pime primally abandoned as a
kid. So the idea is that if you can be
better
then you'll get what you need. If I'm
externalizing shame on like diet
culture, this origin wound never gets
healed. And if I don't accept that it
wasn't them who did this to me, if I can
say, "Wow,
I let this defense structure build
inside of me to protect myself at a time
when it meant my psychological survival,
but now this is no longer serving me." I
think that's a better way to work it
through.
Okay.
How did we go from the word body
positivity to shame? It this is an
umbrella that we're looking at. We're
talking about diet culture which is like
such like a micro point in the movement.
Like we're not just talking about big
bodies. We're talking about all bodies.
So
>> all bodies don't feel shame.
>> But shame I mean
>> it is a core.
>> We're talking about positive.
>> Have you ever felt shame? Of course.
>> Shame is not size exclusive.
>> I didn't say it was.
>> But then why is a movement that was
created to make people feel better about
the body that
>> How does it do that? Tell me.
>> You don't think it has a protocol for
addressing shame? It's pretty explicit.
>> No. But have you ever been in a bigger
body?
>> Yeah, I was 175 pounds at 13, 5t tall.
>> Okay. Um I also was uh overweight
previously. Like when everybody is
telling you that you are not good the
way that you are,
>> like
>> you have to like love yourself. You have
to invite love into the space.
>> How?
>> By looking at yourself in the mirror and
telling yourself, "I'm beautiful."
>> It's not going to work, kid.
>> It does work.
>> That's an SNL skit.
>> It's not.
>> Yes, it is.
>> How? It's positive affirmations. Like
we're like, "No, no, no. This is like
real." Like how
>> positive affirmations like dealing with
a bullet wound with a bag.
Okay, but you're you have to speak to
yourself with love. Exercise can be a
very shameful thing for people in a
bigger body where they already don't
feel invited into different issues.
>> No, but it's that I brought up body
positivity and you brought up shame.
>> Shame is how shame is dealt with is an
integral part of the body positivity
movement. You're saying it's not
>> how shame is dealt with.
>> How people manage their shame, it's
externalized and then it's invalidated.
And I That same form of self, that same
form of what you call shame, I call
self-love. And that same feeling
>> calling shame.
>> You're calling the feeling of feeling
uncomfortable in the size of your body
shame.
>> No, I'm not. I'm saying that the
movement suggests you address shame by
externalizing it. Diet culture made me
feel this way.
>> Uh, capitalism made me feel this way.
>> Not diet culture. Bye-bye. Posit body
positivity. I'm a woman with a baby. I
am six months postpartum.
>> Okay.
>> I body positivity is for me, too. I have
loose skin on my stomach. I don't look
the same as I did before I had a child.
I gained 70 lbs and had to work to lose
it because that was my choice. And I
wanted to move my body to feel better.
So, body positivity is not diet culture.
There's like more bodies that fit into
this umbrella that you're talking about
than just like, oh, big people. Oh,
>> I'm not saying that there aren't.
>> Then what is this diet? Like, why diet
culture? Like why is that the first
thing that rings your bell? Like when
you think of
>> It's not the first thing that rings my
bell, but what I'm suggesting is that
very often
>> what's the first thing you think of?
>> What's the first go? There's many
different pieces to this patchwork quil
thing you think of when you think of
>> honestly
>> is it the word fat?
>> I think no.
>> Then what is it?
>> Uh I think of people who have been
really hurt uh rejecting the things that
they have felt rejected by.
So, all right, pause, we're out of time.
Please return to your seat.
>> Okay, Jillian, great job. Great job,
everybody. So far, we have 10 minutes
for one final debater. So, look around
the room and select somebody who you
would like to spend that last 10 minutes
with. Somebody maybe who you think you
haven't finished the conversation with
or you think they they challenged you in
a way that you want to keep moving. I
>> I want to talk about the genetics piece.
>> Yeah,
>> okay.
>> Talk about a lot of things. My
surrounded claim is that shame is far
more dangerous than body positivity.
>> I don't disagree with you. I disagree
with how it handles shame.
>> Let's talk about the show.
>> Okay.
>> Tell me more about your I guess tactics
or who who Jillian Michaels is to the
world.
>> I can't describe who Jillian Michaels is
to the world. I'm something to
everybody. To some people I'm a hero
that saved their life which I never
listened.
>> Hold on. I disown that completely. I'm
It's not my accomplishment. It's a
projection, right, of of
>> I know you guys don't like this talk,
but it is a projection of the the good
mommy. I'm not that. I'm also the bad
mommy. I'm the evil person that made
them overweight and I did this to them.
I'm all these things to all these
people. Who is Jillian Michaels? I mean,
I'm 5'2.
>> Uh I spend a lot of money on laser hair
removal. Uh I got two kids. Uh I I mean,
>> how do you raise your kids? Do you use
fear and shame to raise them?
>> Does it seem like I use fear and shame
to raise them?
>> Yeah, because you talk about using fear
and shame.
>> I don't talk. First of all, that is a
life or death intervention on a ticking
clock. Because
>> you look at me and see a life or death
need for an intervention right now. Be
honest.
>> Yeah,
>> you might.
>> I do. We don't have a ticking clock.
Which means that if you chose to
reach out to me,
>> not in the way that you go home in a
week, dude. In the way that I get six
days to try to figure out to try to help
you.
>> Okay. No, you're back to the show now.
The ticking clock.
>> I thought we were talking about Well,
you're asking me about fear and I'm
telling you that parenting and Biggest
Loser, there's no parallel.
>> Okay. So, shame.
>> Okay. shaming someone. So like I didn't
say it's okay to shame someone. I'm
telling you that the utilization
of these emotions. I'm telling you that
shame is a signal. It's telling you,
hey, look over here. This this here.
>> So but shame from the world. Like any
shame I've felt from Okay, we'll start
here.
>> Shame from the world. You're
externalizing shame, which is exactly
what I don't agree with.
>> And you're saying and that I've
externalized it by carrying it on my
body as well. No, no. I'm saying when
>> that's a little bit of what you said
earlier about the trauma is
externalized.
>> Well, that would be utilizing your body
as a container to manage emotions. If
we're talking about in this particular
instance, I can give you an example of
that
>> but or not. So, I'm not talking about
shaming someone fundamentally disagree
with that concept. I'm talking about the
shame that is already there, not
externalizing it. I'm talking about
appreciating the fact like, okay, this
is arising from within me.
>> Where is this coming from? And why? If
we instead of going, oh, I think I'm
ashamed because of what they did or what
they told me or what. Now, listen,
people are absolutely at one point or
another very often victims. However, how
we choose to respond to that injury,
okay, at one time absolutely meant your
psychological survival. It is how you
survived that injury. The problem is it
perpetuates and it no longer serves. But
if we continue to repeat the pattern,
it's actually called has a name. It's
called a repetition compulsion. And the
goal, right, is I will master this.
>> I will play this out. It's safer to play
it out externally than where those
feelings really belong because that's
painful. It's also safer because you
don't have to suffer the primal loss of
whatever was missing. So now, can I give
you an example? I'm a shitty parent. We
talked about this, but just follow me,
right? I'm a shitty parent. I'm not
there for you. Okay? Instead of you
saying, "Oh my god, my mom was never
available. I didn't get what I needed."
And there's a, you know, there's
>> peoples that feel that way.
>> Okay?
We then internalize that and go, "It
must be because I'm not good enough."
>> Hence the sinner part. Okay? Not because
mommy is unavailable due to her own
limitations. Instead it gets
internalized
and that is what becomes toxic shame.
What is the primal injury that begot
this emotion and subsequently how do I
deal with it where it's appropriate
meaning the right like not Victoria's
secret okay the primal wound and then in
experiencing that loss feeling those
feelings which really sucks and really
hurts which is why people have defense
structures coping mechanisms so on and
so forth
>> the way through that you feel it and
then after you grieve it after you
explore it then we and implement a
weight release
my trauma.
>> No, a perspective released it and
therefore in I will be thin.
>> A perspective shift and a behavior
change.
>> Yes, of course. I've been desperate my
entire life to change my behaviors and
shift my this and change my eating and
buy factor and go on this diet and sign
up for the trainer and go to the gym and
do the thing and pay thousands of
dollars and get the palaton and go to
soul cycle.
>> That's all surface stuff, dude.
>> Sure. The shame
>> yes
>> never came from myself. I know
>> the shame is external factors AND THAT
IS WHY
>> REMEMBER when you said to me earlier
body positivity remember when you said
to me earlier my parents
>> okay I didn't say it like that mommy's
watching
>> me and mommy's watching but here let's
talk about the parental wound I'll tell
you how my parent was wounded want to
talk about that
>> because here's the thing I feel like you
are saying maha ma it's too close I
think they should have picked a
different name we can work on that but
my thing is is that
>> okay
>> what you're saying is I feel that
there's you're coming to the table.
You're like, listen, I think that I'm a
little bit scared this is an ad for
Maha, but
>> no, forget I'm not talking about Maha.
>> Jillian Michaels is saying she wants a
seat at the table. She's going to go to
Southwest with Tigris and say, "Fat
people deserve two seats. Don't charge
them extra. Let them on the plane,
bitch." She's going to go to Nabiscoco
and say, "Stop putting this in the
food because Jillian, I like the food in
Europe. I like the makeup in Europe even
better."
>> I have been doing THE NABISCOCO PART.
COOL. SOUTHWEST part is a bit of a
separate conversation, but the business
part of conversations. I think you're
coming to the table to say whether or
not it's just like Oprah, we acknowledge
our part in diet culture and and
whatever whatever like let's make the
change. Let's blame it on the bad guys.
>> About diet culture.
>> We haven't even talked about diet
culture today. That is a separate
episode. Body positivity is what we're
talking about. I think we have turned to
body positivity because of the shame.
Because at
>> 9 years old,
>> Yes.
>> my mother
>> Yeah. who was a translator for her
mother who was an immigrant. At that
time it was very legal to easy to come
to this country. My grandfather came
here with a letter in 1964. 100 bucks in
his pocket. They are the American dream.
>> Gotcha.
>> My mother was at the doctor with her
mother.
>> Okay.
>> And a doctor, a professional man,
>> I'm sure he was likely white, turned to
her and said,
"Ask your mom if she can have sex.
Ask your mom. Just tell your mom. She's
like a VW bug going up a hill with nine
people in it. A child. I get it. I mean,
that's where it all comes from, right?
Like my mommy wound is only because of
her own trauma.
>> It's multi-generational.
>> Of course, multigenerational. It gets
into the epigenetics. It gets into how
she raised me. Maybe you don't know
you're on a diet till you're like six
>> and then you go to your aunt's house
who's like anything you want right here.
What do you want at the grocery store
will get you whatever. What did I want?
I wanted yoohoo like everybody else
because I wasn't allowed to have yoooo.
I wasn't allowed to have a ding-dong
when I came home and I said I want
ding-dongs in my lunch. You know what my
mom bought me? Low-fat ding-dongs. And
lowfat ding-dongs aren't wrapped in
foil. So everybody knows they're
low. It's not a thing. I want
the foil. I want the foil. So, she's
acting out of her trauma. Now, I'm just
like, I didn't choose to be here. And
now I'm like, literally, this woman is
crying as I get off the plane from the
Yoo trip because I had gained so much
weight. My grandparents had to buy me
new clothes. But I think that that great
aunt that offered me the Yohoo and said,
"It's right here, honey, and you don't
have to ask anybody when you want one."
>> She knew. She knew I was being
restricted at six years old. And that is
why at 26 when you hear about body
positivity and you're like, "Well, I've
been on a diet for like 20 years, maybe
there's more to life than trying to lose
weight." That's what body positivity has
given me. So, do I still want of course
to make the right choice every day for
my nutrition? Yes. Do I mean I can see
there's like empathy. I also feel like
when you were talking and you thought I
was going to interrupt, you could like
hear my thoughts through my eyes and and
people like you only get to be people
like you because you're a a unicorn.
You're you're a very special person to
have gotten to the place that you've
gotten in this world. But the reality is
I'll finish. My point is
>> that that's where body positivity came
from. I came body positivity actually
came to me. They you know what I was
doing on YouTube? My first YouTube video
is me doing the master cleanse.
and showing people how to cut the lemons
and put their maple syrup in. But then
Body Positivity came and said, "Hey, you
should be talking about plus-siz
fashion, not the master cleanse." Girl,
sounds to me like you still have a a lot
of stuff that is upsetting you. It
sounds to me like you're still
contending with a lot.
>> I'm contending with a society that every
day, every minute of the day tells me
not only I have to buy a product to eat
dinner, I have to take a GLP1. Serena
Williams is selling me a GLP1. Jillian,
that's problematic. I'm doing but listen
to me.
>> And then I'm now I'm old.
>> Will you listen? You're still you're
still externalizing
>> the wound. The first conversation I
think that's where we stay. The first
conversation
that is the most important thing. I
don't care about Serena Williams. I
couldn't care
>> Serena Williams. That's been
>> mama. Who gives a
>> Because Jillian when you're fat when you
No, no, no. But when I am getting a GLP1
ad every time I open any app on my
phone, watch the TV, drive down the
>> Sure. But imagine in my position,
Julian,
>> I went 6 months where every waking hour,
including the 3:00 a.m. P,
>> my mind
>> said, should I go on a GLP1? Should I go
on a GLP1? Should I go on a GLP1?
>> Okay. Would you call that food noise?
What do you call that?
You tell me.
>> I call it up.
>> I call it up cuz I'm over here
like I own a plus-siz fashion store. I
look like the first fat
housewife at Beverly Hills. I'm
gorgeous. I GOT THEY THEM, she's coming
out of my ears. I can anybody on
the street, but this world wants to tell
me that I need to shrink myself, that
there's a thin woman within waiting to
get out.
>> Can I say something?
>> I don't I think I ate her.
>> Can I say something?
>> I I don't think she's here.
>> Say something.
You also told me that that what the
world tell me how the Okay, back up.
Okay,
>> tell me how the the world makes you
feel.
>> I constantly feel like I have to be
smaller.
>> I have to be quieter. I have to be more
submissive in my marriage. I have to
shrink my body to fit on a plane.
>> I have to have a bigger car because I
need a little more room. I need to go to
a special store. Or actually, even
better, order it online. Makes me feel
like
>> circumstances.
>> Makes you feel worthless. It makes you
feel like I can't go to the mall and
spend my money.
>> It makes you feel how
>> devalued. Okay. Okay. Stop. When's the
first time you felt that way?
>> Um,
when I was in ballet and the teacher
picked an outfit I didn't like for the
recital.
>> Eight.
>> When was it when you did your mom put
you on a diet? You said six.
>> I mean, after that Yohoo incident. It
was a It was a real
>> Did that make you feel the way you're
currently describing?
>> No, I didn't know what was I at 6 years
old. I just It's like I knew that I knew
the ding-dong was different cuz it
didn't have the foil, but I didn't
understand.
>> I know. Cuz it becomes
you but unconsciously you do understand.
And now
this pattern is playing out everywhere.
It has a name. It's literally Freudian.
It is called a repetition compulsion.
>> What about the genetics? Like when I
look at photos, you said there were no
fat children 100 years ago. I find that
very strange.
>> There were very few and there were
fewer. Fact me, but there are there have
always been fat people.
>> Hold on.
>> And there always will be. We will not be
eradicated. And we're not going
anywhere. Fat's where it's at. We've
reclaimed the word. You don't have to do
this anymore. You can say biggerbodied.
You can say fat. I want to ask you right
now to stop using obese and be a part of
that.
>> Okay. So, you want fat.
>> Obese is a slur. Yes.
>> I've always thought that calling someone
fat was actually far
>> if fat is if fat is tissue. It's not a
person. But in society, it's the worst
thing you can be. It's absolutely what
every woman and whole woman and child
mostly.
>> So you're saying fat is the worst thing
you can be. So is this
>> that's what our society projects.
>> But so you guys want
>> That's what you're yelling at people on
the the the show to be like don't you
want more than to just be fat? It's what
everyone is so afraid of.
>> Why do you think they showed up? Cuz
they didn't want to be there. You think
that they showed up because they were
forced?
>> There were hund thousands of people.
They showed up because they wanted
change
>> because the world is telling us we have
to change.
>> Listen to me.
Stop making it about the world. Because
if you cannot stop, listen, you can't
change the world. I mean, sure,
hopefully maybe some people can. I don't
know. It's not that freaking easy.
>> I think you might be able to change.
>> It's not that easy. Just Just do it. But
what we can change
>> is how we respond to the world. That's
what I'm trying to get you to
understand. What I think you're doing,
okay, with the world is reenacting this
pattern that you you have from being
very young.
>> Mhm.
>> And I don't think it's healthy for you
because it keeps you pretty angry all
the time. It seems like,
>> oh, you don't know me well. I'm not an
angry person. I think in this context,
it's harmful to say that the world
doesn't have an impact on why people
want to be on a show that's about weight
loss. I think that people want to be on
a show that's about weight loss because
they want to lose weight. I think it's
because everyone has told us we have to
lose weight. That you are not good if
you don't lose weight. If your friends
are at a burger joint, you're the one
getting the salad because you know you
should restrain from the burger even
though we're at a burger place. Because
>> why should you restrain from the burger?
>> Because that is what the world has told
me that I have to make the good healthy
choice. Also, let's talk about the fact
that no one here has said that we don't
owe anybody health. I don't owe anybody
my health.
>> Do you want to be healthy?
>> I am healthy. I'm healthy for me. And
this is what healthy for me looks like.
>> Can I ask you this? If if I if I sent
you to a doctor who ran a full
comprehensive blood panel.
>> Mhm.
>> If there were biomarkers.
>> Yeah. There would be some fatty liver
stuff coming up.
>> Okay. Sure. Yeah. There cholesterol.
>> Classify that as phys.
This has nothing to do with your value.
>> Yeah. No, I'm talking about numbers, the
data.
>> Liver,
>> sure,
>> healthy,
>> but thin people get fatty liver, too.
>> They're far less inclined.
>> Time. We're out of time. Thanks for
sharing your story. I really do think
that was valuable. Thank you all for
being a part of this episode. I know you
had to talk about your bodies. You had
to talk about your lives. Jillian, thank
you for being on this episode,
>> bringing your passion. And Elon Musk, I
know you were watching this, so why
don't we get you in the center?
>> You know what? I really appreciate
everybody showing up. I I really
appreciate them sharing their stories.
My issue with [music] body positivity
remains though. Oh, it means this for
me. Well, it means that for them. Well,
it's about political activism. Oh, yeah,
but big food like that. They could do
whatever they want with the movement.
Oh, but the influencers, that's not
really us. Like, but it kind of is. And
that's kind of the problem is that
there's no centralized guideline. I
think she is really limited in what she
sees the movement as. She's blaming the
movement [music] for the things that
people who have co-opted the movement
are doing. Call out the co-opters. Don't
call out the movement for not calling
out the co-opters. I do think there's a
kernel in what Jillian said about like
um you know thinking that body
positivity focuses a little too much on
the personal. Um from from our
perspective, we want to move beyond just
the personal. We think the personal is
important. You gotta you got to believe
you're worthy of fair and equal
treatment in order to demand fair and
equal treatment. But we're going to work
on the fair and equal treatment pieces
of it. She was cool. She was calm. She
was collected. And I don't know what
exactly she's totally talking about, but
she is confident in her messaging.
What we're here to say is that we don't
want to spend our entire life trying to
change our body. shaming me into
thinking that I should get on that
thing, I should get on the scale or
whatever, that's not going to work on
me. Shame has no place in my life. And
to me, that's true liberation. Shame is
not a part of this. I can't I can't
continue on with this shame.
It's it's again, it's more of the same
defense mechanism. Every single person
who came up and debated me had tried to
lose weight and then when they felt like
they couldn't, this is where they
resigned themselves. [music]
I'm not telling you that getting healthy
is easy. I'm telling you it's [music]
doable and you have to decide if you're
worth the work.
